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Talk:Original Vocaloid Characters
This Talk page was moved to the Forums for archive purposes. First post The rules are somewhat relaxed here, but be sure to follow the layout design. O Herman 02:58, October 7, 2009 (UTC) So wait, anyone can put up an Original Vocaloid Character? Or not? Shima the Hedgehog 17:06, February 19, 2010 (UTC) About This Article Does this page really have its raison d'etre? The characters here do not have any relation with famous ones, do not sing at all, do not have popularity in all obscurity. This page is just for the sloppy guys with their graffiti. Damesukekun 12:17, July 12, 2010 (UTC) :I've noticed recently, there is a lot of problems controling fan-mades. Maybe, aside form the VERY famous ones like Neru we just should have pages for them at all. I can adjust the main template to include them, its not a problem. They are orphaned pages anyway. But it might a better solution to our current problem. There definately should be a rethink on all the pages, they also become dated really fast. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 13:55, July 12, 2010 (UTC) ::There is no real solid standard when it comes to posting fanmades. There are bunch of unused images and pages created with no upkeep or reason. Bunai82 19:16, July 12, 2010 (UTC) :::Plus, some of the characters have the grave misuse of the Japanese language and we have no way to let them be corrected. This blemishes the reliability of this wiki. Damesukekun 13:39, July 13, 2010 (UTC) ::::Original characters should be treated like Fanmade Vocaloids. The difference is when people take interest in them, they will goes into the Original Vocaloids instead of the Fanmade Vocaloid section. If they are popular enough, they will get their own page. We need to establish what it takes for them to be in the Original section. Do they need to be in x number of videos or x number of people need to know about them? Like Fanmade Vocaloids, if there is no new material on them, they are considered abandon. If not neglected or popular, they will goes into the proposed section. SneakyDeath 01:21, July 14, 2010 (UTC) I think the two articles (original and fanmade) can be merged. Maybe fanmade would be the main article. We have the similar pages with the slightest differences and this is unavailable to visitors. Damesukekun 06:07, July 14, 2010 (UTC) ::If we were to do that, how would it be categorize? We cannot put it in any other based ones. Why is there no link to it in the Fanmade Vocaloid section when Dub singers does? ::If the characters here cannot be categorized, they are not Vocaloids at all and are not appropriate for this Wiki. Bringing back the subject, I don't think this page and these characteres have the reason of existence. Damesukekun 02:48, July 15, 2010 (UTC) :::I say just trash the articles entirely. Anything saying "fanmade" and allowing open editing usually calls for trouble anyway. Only dead fish go with the flow. 02:50, July 15, 2010 (UTC) ::::We should delete it completely. It is pretty much a fandom paradise in the section. Vocaloids are supposed to sing. That is its main purpose. If they do not sing, they are not a Vocaloid. It is just like giving a bald guy a comb. It is pointless. SneakyDeath 05:10, July 15, 2010 (UTC) Okay, here's my suggested actions (because I don't want to anger any people who actually make fanmades and put hard work into it: * Create a new wiki for "Fanmade Vocaloids". Format it like the UTAU Wiki. * The rules there should be the same as the ones here, except notability is not required. (You have to put effort and provide the voice config, but being famous isn't necessary.) * On the Vocaloid Wiki, delete all fanmade articles and references except the following: Akita Neru, Yowane Haku, Sakine Meiko, Tako Luka. (And we should all know why these four are more special than the others. They have something very important in common.) How about this? and the only reason I want to keep the data is that I don't want to lose Riza Only dead fish go with the flow. 17:52, July 16, 2010 (UTC) :A Fanmade Vocaloid (brainstorm more titles) wiki is the ideal/correct alternative. Between the real Vocaloids and the Fanmades, it is getting rather cluttered to keep track of. And as another post stated, a lot of the characters are abandoned or some revamped. :I don't believe Fanmades should depend strictly on popularity because there might be some that have their own following. For example the Annoyloids, which is meant to parody the fanmades as a whole, I think it speaks out quite a bit without gripping about it. The newest UTAU, Tei Sukone, is similar to Kagami Kawaiine, in that it is meant to parody fanmades. :There are a lot of fanmade vocaloids with no voice but have (some form) of established artwork. Some people don't want to resort to UTAU / pitching / voicing, their character. Sometimes a wiki shows a bias favor of posting Japanese created fanmades while others are not considered. Bunai82 01:53, July 17, 2010 (UTC) ::Most of the Japanese created fanmades that are posted on wiki have several own voiced songs/works that support them. Usually Japanese fanmades that do not have such works are not considered as well as non-Japanese fanmades with no voice. I think that is fine on vocaloid wiki.Blacksaingrain 04:22, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :::What overseas fans may not know is almost all of the Japanese creators are professional or aspiring musicians, illustrators and programmers in their twenties and thirties, and they know what they are doing. In other words, there are few novice creators in the Japanese vocaloid community and a newcomer usually asks for a senior's advice before coming into the Vocaloid world. Easy concepts get thumbs down on Nicovideo and Piapro. That's the reason not a few Japanese creations prevail with their qualities. Damesukekun 05:21, July 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::Note, I just edited your colon marks for visual reasons, no word edits ^_^;;. . @Damesukekun - Lol It is obvious that people who have the most success with Vocaloid are professionals (of art/media), musicians or have knowledge of music and arrangement skill, so I doubt it is unknown, it is just not thought of a lot, especially when people get so excited they think it would be easy to make a Vocaloid sing in any language without trouble. Many younger fans are inspired by skilled users', but of course it will take them a long time and some guiding to get them to accomplish their work, I think being critical helps a lot better than virtual yelling. I've seen some pretty bad fanmades (in many series) and you sort of have to gradually push the "mary/gary stu factor" out of a fanmade creator. @Aster Selene - I put in the sentence "The newest UTAU, Tei Sukone" and compared her to Kagami Kawaiine due to their similarities for being created, not due to their programs or title. @Blacksaingrain - It just seems unbalanced to me at times, not saying that no-sifting before posting is required, I just notice a lack of balance, and it is likely due to how this Wiki handles fanmades in general, there isn't much structure. So I am all for just making one specifically for fan created material, I think having fanmades mixed with the original subject of a wiki becomes cluttered, this happened with the Avatar Fanon wiki, which I am still not sure what purpose there was in mixing the two. Bunai82 16:08, July 17, 2010 (UTC) ::The Wikia article for them seems like an ideal solution, but I am afraid it will become anything goes buffet where people will put all type of fanmade Vocaloids on it despite the fact it has rules applied.SneakyDeath 02:18, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :::The solution to that is simple; wiki rules are easier to maintain than UTAU rules, so just delete the pages whenever they go outside the rules and talk to the user about it. And Sukone Tei is not a fanmade Vocaloid; she's an UTAU, and those are very different. :::I think we do need to force on requirements for a voice source and a voice config, because pitching songs in Audacity not only is laziness but is also disrespect to the original songs. :::Anyway I'm going to make the wiki. I'll transfer some stuff over (I'll obviously need help); someone please inform Antonio Lopez about this and get his opinion. I can transfer pages but I have no authority over any decision or not to delete the pages here. Only dead fish go with the flow. 03:06, July 17, 2010 (UTC) ::Compromise - let's have 2 sections, voiced and non-voiced. All voiced, however, must have a config. Only dead fish go with the flow. 05:35, July 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::Um, I was talking about this wiki, not a new one for fanmades, just to point out Japanese/non-Japanese is not so important. If non-Japanese ones have good supports/vocaloid voiced works, they should be treated right even on this wiki. Anyway, I agreed with your opinion about the new one. Blacksaingrain 06:16, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :I don't like having fanmades on this wiki at all though, because people will just put up their no-effort pitched badly-drawn work without thinking through it at all. Only dead fish go with the flow. 06:36, July 17, 2010 (UTC) ::Yes, enjoying creating fanmades is not a bad thing though, pitching other creators' works for fanmades and using them as if they were one's own creative works are the worst things to do; even if how much artworks are great.Blacksaingrain 06:52, July 17, 2010 (UTC) I'd go for a wiki for fan-mades and just let it develope, while maintaining links from this wikia to that one. The One Piece wikia allowed a fanfiction wikia to co-existance for the sake of keeping fanfiction off the main wikia and it worked. If someone did put fan fiction on the OP wikia, we removed it and pointed them to that one. It allowed the fanfiction wikia to control itself and maintain rules that applied to its own self so the factaul based wikia could get on with what it does. Take note as well, as time goes by there will be more and more offical Vocaloids. Controling fanmades, who are mostly all Miku and other Crypton ones, draws attention from maintaining a safe wikia for the actual one. And this they are born from the actauly vocaloids, it means we can devote more attention to them if their not here at all. Recently, this has proven true since we now how another Vocaloid out and I was left to struggle with updating Tonio's page by myself as well as set up a Phoneme page with no signs of anyone helping too greatly. And everyone's focus has been on sorting out the fanmade problem, a problem that from what seems like it from what I've witnessed, a problem thats only getting worst over time. A wikia relies on its communitity that means everyone has to pitch in, but if the communitity doesn't have a priority then it just go around in circles. Someone has to make a decision. ITs not a problem to change the mainbox to direct fandom things to another wikia. One-Winged Hawk 08:00, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :Looks like someone beat me to it. Here's the wiki. Only dead fish go with the flow. 17:59, July 17, 2010 (UTC) ::Shall we begin the transfer? If so, I will get to it.SneakyDeath 19:48, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :No, because that doesn't seem like it was created by anyone at this wiki. Check the Local list users. There are number of Vocaloid fanmade wikis, I am seeing which are active or what names can be used. Bunai82 19:51, July 17, 2010 (UTC) ::All of them are outdated and completely unorganized.Until we can find a home for them, they will have to stay here. SneakyDeath 03:16, July 18, 2010 (UTC) ::I made a new one, http://fanmadevocaloid.wikia.com/ . Only dead fish go with the flow. 21:38, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :::Did we get approve from the big dog (administrator) to do this? SneakyDeath 03:16, July 18, 2010 (UTC) :::Not yet...I still need to ask. Or someone else. Or me. Only dead fish go with the flow. 04:39, July 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::I'm not sure of the rules of transfer on this wiki but I just thought we should move to http://vocaloid.wikia.com/wiki/Category_talk:Candidates_for_deletion to discuss the matter since we are talking about several articles, and it might be better to list up every article we are thinking of transfer and put Template:Delete or something to them so every editor, especially who mainly edits fanmades', can know what is going on now. The administer cannot easily approve the suggestion of transfer as the situation now stands, I suppose.Blacksaingrain 10:35, July 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::The original thought of the wikia was general fandom, but admittingly, it has gone too far from its vision. Notability clause doesn't work in an environment where its content comes from its users. Even though they're trash or cruft, they still have potential and needs a shot nonetheless. The notability and popularity rule really hurts people who legitimately wants to establish a character, but of course, it still needs to be filtered so that they're properly made. ::::That's why despite complaints of being disorganized, the UTAU wiki succeeded in its purpose. fanmadevocaloid is growing in parallel with UTAU that it warrants its own wiki now. The notability clause is what discourages potential users, legitimate or otherwise, but it seems to be doing more harm than good. But still we need the QA standards. O Herman 06:05, July 19, 2010 (UTC) :::::In my humble opinion, Vocaloid is a commercial production and that's the difference from UTAU. UTAU wiki is a sort of fandom, but I don't think it's bad because UTAU itself is a fanmade program and is distributed free practically, and the developer encourages users to create their own voicebanks and avatars. That is, the developer himself has set the basis of Utauloid fandom. Vocaloid, on the other hand, is a product of legal bodies and we cannot treat the countless fan creations in the same way as official ones. Damesukekun 16:11, July 19, 2010 (UTC) True... on an off note, can the wikia be VocaloidDerived, to at least be consistent with with this Wiki or try to make a slight change from the current, abandoned, FanmadeVocaloid's' wiki? Something to make it stand out. Bunai82 15:06, July 19, 2010 (UTC) :That's all fine...I'll be able to set up the structure of fanmadevocaloid (no s) properly after I finish moving. Only dead fish go with the flow. 17:58, July 19, 2010 (UTC) : I agree that a seperate wiki for fanmade vocaloids is a good idea. It would be easier to maintain the fanmades if this works. I also think this can't be done with just one person, and we all( whoever agrees with fanmade's wiki) need to help, or it probably won't get done. I know that I have a OC fanmade who isn't finished yet (I need a vocaloid program...)and I don't think personally she belongs here. Not because she doesn't have a voice yet either. Ok well that's my opinion. LuminousHeart8 17:49, August 2, 2010 ::Deletion of the articles should be done through certain procedures(need to put Template:Delete and do some other things). But if the original articles, where the page histories are stored, are not deleted and there are links to the new wiki articles, I think transferring the contents to the new wiki articles is okay. We can discuss about the deletion after transferring them and proving the Fanmade Vocaloid wiki can work out. Just my personal opinion. Blacksaingrain 05:03, August 3, 2010 (UTC)